[ghostfires]

I have a question for all the labels here that do business this way - and I promise, this isn't meant to be smart ass commentary, or me trying to be a funny guy. I spend a lot of my money on ALL of these soundtracks that are released, and it seems lately that soundtracks are about the only series of vinyl that is set up SO early as pre-orders.

Look at the new announcement for Waxwork Records - I am very excited about the Rosemary's Baby soundtrack, I'm sure it's going to be great. Why do we need to actually pay for the record 50 days before it is released? I can understand a pre-order coming up a week or two before the release, but why nearly two months?

Why does Mondo make us pay so long before the soundtracks are mailed out? Why did I pay for DW's New York Ripper and Room 237 through LITA 71 days ago - and it still hasn't shipped? I mean...I'm shelling out A LOT of money to ensure I get a copy, and then I just wait...and wait...and wait....and then forget about them. I just don't see any real upside to paying THAT early, except that the labels or distributors get our money much sooner. Is that the main reason? To get the project paid for first, then have the records pressed? That seems like a very dangerous business model.

Any thoughts or answers? I promise again, I'm not trying to be a smart ass or be funny about this. I'm a dedicated vinyl lover, I really enjoy the products you guys (OWS, DW, LITA, WWR) are all putting out...it just is a ton of work to try and keep all this straight, and to keep paying for things that I honestly don't know when I'm going to receive. Is it possible to start setting up pre-orders two weeks before a record ships instead of months?

[lazyben]

Thanks for starting this.

We are also giving up our rights and protections under these arrangements. i think paypal gives you 45 days after payment to initiate a complaint and if the projected receipt date, never mind the release date, is further out than that you're hosed.

Not to pick on waxworks as this is just an example but the day of the dead release date also ended up slipping from what was announced initially and then mine shipped a few days after the revised release date too. Some labels who do preorders ship them out early so you hopefully get your record ahead of the street date which seems a reasonable deal for committing early and paying the label directly.

It's also funny that it's new labels doing this, the ones you would have the least reason to trust as you have no history with them.

[seb]

This is actually a very good question.

And as you may know I always go into these kind of questions, I believe it brings my label closer to the base : you.
First of all. I can only speak for MY label, I don't speak for the others.

To sum it up : it has both financial an logistic reasons.

I start pre-orders on my releases when the test pressings are approved and the artwork has been filed with the printers. At that moment I know there is going to be a record and I have a date when it's going to be done. About 6 weeks from the moment pre-orders start.

A) financially : It costs a TON to make such a record, and a lot of bills need to be paid upfront. The pre-order money helps to pay for a PART of this. When you start a label you don't have those reserves. Wholesale money (from the stores) only shows up months after the record is out. So there is a big time frame you need to cover living on bread and water

At some point you build up a financial reserve and then you can afford to just press, pay and wait for the records to show up and sell them right from stock. This takes time. Death Waltz is now going to do this, so I guess they are at that point now (again not trying to speak for him or for others).

B) Logistics : you have some money to re-invest in other projects thanks to the pre-order funds. Meaning you can launch other projects faster without having large gaps between releases. Making everybody really happy.

+ you have all the orders in, the day the records come in you have all your labels ready and you know what to ship and where to. It helps you get prepared.

And if pre-orders are through the roof, as a label you can upscale your pressing so demand is met without further delays.


Some people say it's to 'see what the interest is' … I'm not sure about that. It doesn't matter if you got 10 pre-orders or 1000 … you have to press it anyways because it has been ordered.

The danger for the label is : when there are delays with the pressing plant you can find yourself in a serious pickle. You have to explain this to hundreds of people and answer a million emails. Your reputation will suffer and it's all beyond your control.

The danger for the customer is : if you have a long pre-order time you might loose your buyer protection from paypal. They only protect you for a certain time I believe.

It's a matter of trust between the fan and the label. Nothing more, nothing less. And don't worry, you can easily spot the jokers. They can only rip you off once…

One Way Static plans to step out of the pre-order system too. But like I said, we need at least a couple more records under our belt to make this happen. Thank you all for your trust. We won't disappoint.

Anything else about this or other things… feel free to ask guys. Good one Ghostfires!

Seb

[ghostfires]

Thank you for the full explanation as to how it works for you Seb, I really appreciate that. I do understand your points, and they do make sense. I appreciate that you, along with other labels, work toward getting away from having to do pre-orders once you have the capital built from the initial releases. I really brought this up in hopes that I could find out that we will be getting away from all these pre-orders in the future, and it looks like you are working toward that goal.

I guess my main concern here is there is a TON of vinyl being released these days, and I don't just buy soundtracks. My money three months ago could have gone to something else that I passed on to order two new DW records from LITA, that still after 70 days have no shipping notice out. They are not sold out either...meaning I could have waited until these records were ready, and purchased something else 70 days ago that is now actually sold out. Part of that is my fault for falling for all the hype. I came to that realization with the Halloween release from Mondo. There was no reason to sit and hit refresh over and over, that shit never sold out.

I guess this year was just the year of soundtrack reissues. This might sound weird - but I honestly hope there are less next year, for my wallet's sake. If next year sees the same amount of reissues...I'm going to be forced to pick and choose fewer because I simply cannot afford another year of vinyl buying like this year. Does anyone else feel this way?

[bansel]

Ghostfires, I just recently got married and started a joint bank account with my wife (big mistake). She did an "audit" and discovered I spending like $500/mo on records. It even shocked me! Between all the reissues, oversees shipping and my own eBay addictions, this shit is out of control,

This next year I'm going to just go for the waxwork, DW, One Way and some mondo. Let's hope they take it easy on us and not come up with too much stuff! I will probably cut out any oversees buying because the shipping is what kills me most.

[goodnightcigarettes]

I kinda disagree that this is something exclusive to soundtrack labels or new labels. Tons of big-shot "indie" labels, and majors, announce records months in advance. Go to almost any upcoming release schedule (like this one http://www.insound.com/upcoming-releases/) and things are already starting to roll in for March. (Worse yet, look at the world of concert tickets.)

Personally I have zero problem with things getting announced far in advance. On the press side of things, a big lead time helps publications get their shit together to give these records the love they deserve. But more importantly, I think getting burned by labels like this is extremely rare. You ordered it, you paid for it and it will come. You just have to be a little patient if you're going to get all nerd about your way-in-advance record shopping.

[ghostfires]

I really don't listen to anything from big-shot labels, or much of anything that insound carries...I don't believe at least. That seems to be more hipster alt-rock centric....radiohead, arcade fire, the national, wavvves...that sort of nonsense just isn't for me so I'd have no clue what their labels do with their releases. I do see pre-orders for other genres of music that I buy - just not lead times of two or three months out from the release.

My point isn't about me being impatient with a release - I don't care when it comes out. I just don't want to feel pressured to buy three months in advance, or else I won't get the record. There was more hype built around soundtrack reissues this year than ever before, and I think that exceeded hype built around any other styles of music on vinyl in 2013.

I'm not obsessed with buying these soundtracks because of any kind of social status it carries, nor do I obsess over collecting full sets of things. I simply love the music, and want to ensure that I get a copy of the record. You really didn't see multiple versions of any given soundtrack being pressed until later this year. Before that, you were constantly led to believe that if you did not pre-order...there were no further copies available, and you were simply out of luck. That is a big problem to me, as I don't want to miss out on music I love.

[ghostfires]

@bansel - I feel your pain completely. I am spending way too much on vinyl. It's hard to stop though because there is truly so much good music out this year. You've got amazing labels like Numero Group, Thompkins Square, & LITA digging up old music, you've got all these awesome soundtrack labels reissuing great film soundtracks. I keep finding import black metal I can't live without. The only category of music I buy a lot of that I think I've had a break on this year is modern classical...I believe I've picked up one Max Richter and one Johann Johannsson this year, not too bad in comparison to other styles of music. All of that in addition to still consistently looking for good funk albums, good krautrock records, good ambient or space records. I think the buying was so ramped up this year because more people than ever are buying records, so costs are rising...sellers know there is a bigger market out there now, so they're asking higher prices.

[goodnightcigarettes]

With the exception of a few records, like Field in England, most of this stuff seems pretty easy to get now and nothing is really going out of print super fast. But I feel your pain on the "if you don't order now, you're going to miss out" thing. It can be a bit tiring. But as trips to the local record shop repeatedly remind me, this stuff is increasingly easy to get... unless you're all obsessed about variants.

[siforster]

For this sort of thing, it would be highly advisable (where possible) to avoid Paypal and use a credit card - purchases on these are automatically covered by their own insurance, because ultimately it's the cc people buying the stuff on your behalf. If more labels allowed for these direct transactions (because credit card payments through Paypal or Amazon Marketplace for example aren't covered), they could pre-order as far in advance as they want and the consumer is still covered.

[bitewerks]

This is a good topic! I hate pre-orders & have gotten to the point that I will only do a couple every now n' then. There's simply too many other things I can spend money on (other records, mountain bike parts, books, movies) rather than tying up my dough into something that is sure to be delayed.

[deathwaltz]

Hey folks
we typically in the past have put preorders up 15-30 days ahead of release , now unfortunately with ripper room andAssault we got hit by a ton of delays which resulted in well frankly a clusterfuck…..
We are not doing pre orders going forward, we will list things for sale 7 days before they arrive at the warehouse and only when we know the record is finished and on it's way to us.
It brke my heart to see the dates getting pushed back when y'all had paid for them….
Trust me we have three releases ready to go, art is finished and test pressings are approved , when we get em you'll see photos and be able to buy nowing you'll have them with 14 days…..

[dumaisaudio]

I agree, most of these labels should start accepting credit cards directly as well as Paypal. Paypal takes 3%, and I believe credit cards take 3-4%, so I don't see the big difference there. I know Mondo and LITA do credit, and pretty much all the labels have their stuff sold through LITA. Waxworks is Paypal only, and since they offer the exclusive variant through them, if you want a chance at it, you have to go through them.

I understand their stance behind preorders, and I already saw those answers coming. I get it, and as a small label, they need some money up front to get things started. I just wish it wasn't 6 weeks out. I do think if you preorder, it should be in your hands in 30 days, which I think all would agree is reasonable. I do also wish that ordering direct from the label would get you the releases first. I hate walking into my local shop and seeing 5 copies of Halloween sitting there and I can't buy them because I have two coming from Mondo that won't get here until a week later. If you preorder, I would think the label would want to treat you to the release before shops. I'm not saying all labels do that, I'm mainly complaining about Mondo, which doesn't have a presence here. I preordered the Zombi reissues from Relapse, seeing the Jan release date. I was shocked to get them the first week of Dec! That's what I'm talking about!

I'm definitely having to scale back next year. We just bought a house and looking at my vinyl spending, it really is out of control. The limited hype is over. Aside from a few releases, all this stuff isn't hard to get. I want the variants, but I might just have to be more selective. The real kicker is if you want these random variants, you end up buying several copies hoping to get it and then trying to sell the regular copies, usually at a slight loss. I can't be doing that anymore, that's for sure. I do appreciate Death Waltz not doing these random inserts. You buy this specific color, or you can subscribe early and get special colors. I'm probably not doing anything through Mondo again, I'll just order it from Amazon. I ordered that splatter Halloween vinyl at the end of November, and it's just now shipping, which is ridiculous since they were leftovers and in hand, they just took three weeks to ship it.

[bitewerks]

It'd be nice if labels could knock a few bucks off for pre-orders especially if it's months down the road before the release date.

[ghostfires]

I know it sounds like a lot of whining, but some of these points are pretty valid. I see it a lot with pre-ordering for other products like posters, movies, and sometimes with vinyl/cassettes...pre-order customers get a little something extra, maybe a discount or some kind of bonus. To see the exact same product show up at retailers at the exact same price, kinda makes it worthless to spend all the money up front....right? I actually always pay MORE by pre-ordering because of the shipping costs!

Also - it is incredibly frustrating to see the releases at local stores before my pre-orders ever arrive. I know those kinds of things will be worked out going forward from what it sounds like from most labels that have responded, but that point was brought up and it happens to be fairly often so I did want to second it.

As for Mondo....they are most definitely the worst label when it comes to these reissue labels. While you see improvements and EXCELLENT customer service with every release from DW, OWS, WWR, etc....you see nothing but fake build-ups and terrible deliveries each time from Mondo. I'm seriously considering not going after anything they do next year, unless it's just truly something I love musically. They have no connection to their fans at all, they also seem to be a lot more corporate than anyone else. I'd rather give my money to labels that are truly independent. I just wish there wasn't all this legal shit with each release...I wish more than one label could get the rights to soundtracks, so we could choose who we want to buy it from. I know that isn't possible, just wishful thinking.

[deathwaltz]

I would not use paypal at all if I'm honest . We are currently looking a a credit card solution which will bypass paypal although the reality is that it will probably lose us sales :/

[siforster]

Not thought of that - the joy/drunken regret of paypal is that is requires next to no effort to pay for stuff (ie, it's just a password once it's all set up). Quite surprised that none of the CC companies have tried to do anything similar.

[bitewerks]

There is, at least, one other PayPal-type site with lower fee's but no one seems to use it. I can't remember the name of it & it's been awhile so it may not even be around anymore. It would be nice if PP has some competition.